Monday
Nov082010
Approaching Heaven, Mummies and Infinity
Monday, November 8, 2010 
Once you let your children out of your sight, a magical thing happens: they learn things from other people. They come home and say a word you never taught them. They ask about a food you've never served. They treat you to a story or a song they learned somewhere else. They tell you about special days and why we commemorate them. Those things make me smile.
But they may also bring home nuggets of information we wish they hadn't. Things that are false. Things they are perhaps (subjectively) too young to know. Or things that go against our beliefs. The discussions that follow the sharing of those tidbits are more delicate, which is challenging when they catch you off guard like my friend Emma was caught off guard recently.
In her post Just Like Heaven, Emma wrote about something her son shared in the car one day:
He tells us that God is everywhere,and sees everything. He speaks of Heaven, and God’s presence up there. There’s a mention of angels.
In her post, which I hope you'll read, Emma talks about the challenge of responding to statements like that when the child is presenting, as fact, something that contradicts your own beliefs. The challenge of being respectful of what someone else believes, while at the same time sharing your own beliefs. We've had the discussion about God a few times, most recently leading up to my niece's Christening, because I didn't know what they might hear at the ceremony and how it would mesh with our own world view. But there have been other things that have come out of left field and caught us off guard.
In my reply to Emma's post, I wrote:
My son’s friend told him that mummies exist and that they come out at night and go into all of our houses. We handled that the same way that we have handled the discussions about God or about whether infinity is a number. Basically, some people believe in it,some people don’t believe in it, you can decide for yourself what you believe in.*
I would separate religion from beliefs though and expect to have a much franker and more prescriptive discussion about that. I’ll talk about some of the good points (such as community, like you mentioned above) and the bad points (acts that are hurtful towards individuals or groups).
I hope to teach my children to look at things critically and I think that their education on God, beliefs, and religion is one that will take place over many, many years, just like their education about the birds and the bees. There are things that a 3 year old needs to learn and those are different from the things a 13 year old needs to learn.
It isn’t easy, that’s for sure.
*To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty sure we told him that mummies do exist, but they are all wrapped up in Egypt and not going into anyone's house at night, but that his friend is free to believe whatever he wants. I just thought it was a good example of a situation where kids' friends tell them things that are absurd (and believe me, there have been many from this particular friend who claims his dad is a "scientist" as his back-up for his wild beliefs).
I think that not having a religion and not believing in God makes our job as parents both easier and more difficult. It is more difficult because we can't explain difficult things away with "Jesus loves you", promises of Heaven, or threats of Hell. We can't write things off as sins and leave it as that, a more nuanced conversation is required. But at the same time, it is easier, because I don't have to explain why a good God would allow so many injustices in the world and because I feel like there is more nuance and more flexibility in building an evolving set of personal values that are not necessarily better or worse than someone else's.
Some of these conversations are difficult, but I'm glad that we have them and I look forward to what my children bring to them. I'm sure that they will continue to bring home interesting information they have learned elsewhere and I hope we'll continue to be able to create an environment where they feel welcome to share that information with us and where we can have an open discussion about it.
Have your children brought home interesting "facts" that you didn't agree with? What do you do when your children learn things that contradict your own beliefs?
Image credit: Ulrik Sverdrup on Wikimedia Commons
Reader Comments (64)
Sara:
A few books I would recommend, that others have mentioned here too, are Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Freethinkers. Perhaps they will help you find a plan before next year rolls around. ;)
Thinking too much is not a problem, Jennifer. It is what I love about you and so many other people.
Annie,
You know that even when I disagree with you, I usually have the utmost respect for the way you express yourself and the thought you put into your posts. But I think that Cin had a really valid point that was lost as a result of a later comment.
You said, "It is more difficult because we can’t explain difficult things away with “Jesus loves you”, promises of Heaven, or threats of Hell. We can’t write things off as sins and leave it as that, a more nuanced conversation is required. "
I think that is a terrible misunderstanding of the way an intellectual Christian might integrate their faith into their parenting.
At no time do I explain difficult things away, threaten my children (least of all with Hell), bribe them (well, except with M&Ms for potty training), or "write things off".
And if you knew my daughter, you would know that a nuanced conversation is not optional.
You later wrote in the comments, "I just don’t have canned answers for the big issues, so it is a delicate and nuanced conversation when they do come up. It doesn’t mean I avoid them. It just means that it requires a lot of thought and consideration."
Well, neither do I. Nothing about my responses to my children are "canned".
Having religious faith does not mean you have easy answers to give your children or that you bribe them with salvation or threaten them with damnation.
This is a caricature of people who have religious faith.
Candace:
I appreciate you, and others, sharing your perspective with me. I am happy to hear that there are religious families having nuanced conversations and not using canned answers. Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of the opposite too. But I do appreciate you sharing with me that it isn't always the case.
Of course--but there are also a lot of "knee jerk" reactions from supposedly educated people on the other side of things, too.
I always say that jerks are jerks and judgmental people are judgmental people, whether they feed their baby at the breast or with formula from a bottle, vote Democrat or Republican or Other, or are people of faith or atheists.
I do feel, though, like you treated this issue differently than you do others and I wonder why.
It is one thing to speak about your own experience, trying to find your way towards a developmentally appropriate way to teach an ethical system in the absence of an externally-justified morality...it is another to speculate and generalize about the motivations and thought-processes of an entire group of people you view as "other" based on a scattered handful of impressions.
When my brother died at 24, I was told repeatedly that God had other plans for him, that he was in a better place now, that God would provide me solace and that I would see him again in the great afterlife. When a dear friend miscarried pregnancies over and over again, I heard her being told that those fetuses were now angels and in a beautiful place. When our dogs died we received cards referencing a doggy heaven. While it irks me some that those telling me, my atheist friend and my family these responses don't recognize our beliefs system and so not say such things, I also don't think they're jerks. I think that they truly believe that their god has a plan, that there is a heaven, that there is an afterlife and that these beliefs bring them solace that they wish to share. These were common place responses. This type of response and long conversations with Christian friends who I would most definitely consider intellectual forms my understanding.
I'm genuinely interested in what you believe happens to us when we die and whether that idea brings you solace?
I don't think it is unreasonable to think that telling children that death is the end, that we won't see each other again, more daunting than telling them there is an afterlife, or that something painful is part of a bigger plan by a loving god. And as I sit here and think about what both you and Cin have said, I agree. I imagine a parent who believes in an all powerful, loving god may engage in a difficult conversation in explaining "why a good God would allow so many injustices in the world" (PhDinParenting's words). Is it unreasonable to say, as PhDinParenting does in the original post, that dependent on our beliefs some of life's challenges maybe easier and others more difficult to explain to our children?
Tepary:
Was that reply intended for Candace?
First, let me clarify what I mean when I say "jerks is jerks" -- what I mean is that no matter what the issue or what your position on an issue, there will be people who will "defend" the same position or its opposite using methods you find distasteful.
I have a friend who formula-feeds, for example, and feels very put upon by "lactivists" who stop her to tell her that she really should be breastfeeding, not even knowing what is in the bottle or what my friend's circumstances are. I sympathize with her but remind her there are also busybodies who stop breastfeeding mothers to tell them that the child is "too old" or they should "use a cover", etc.
I'm not sure the comments section on a post about addressing other value systems and ideas our children bring home is the place for me to go deeply into my specific religious beliefs.
I will tell you that my daughter first heard of the concept of "Hell" or an "underworld" from Greek and Norse mythology. She asked me about it and I asked her, first, what she thought. Then, we talked about how those places fit into the Greek and Norse belief systems. Then, I told her that I don't believe Hell is a physical place but rather the absence of being with God. I believe, similarly, that Heaven isn't a place with wings, robes, and harps but rather a spiritual reunion with God.
I don't disagree that it is reasonable to say that our beliefs affect our parenting or that each belief system brings with it its own challenges.
And am I fascinated by the original premises of the post: how do address beliefs not your own when your child encounters them? and also, how do you teach an ethical system in the absence of an external moral authority?
The first is one that all parents of any belief encounter.
The second is one that may be particular to a certain subset of parents but it is still fascinating to me--I love discussing philosophy.
However, Annie goes a step further in the bits I quote.
What I object to is the assumptions about the beliefs of an entire group of people and then the further assumptions about how that affects their parenting. I find the language used to be rather condescending.
Your general statement is not provocative at all--but to take a step further and claim to know what those specific challenges would be and how I would handle them, based only on the fact that I have faith in a power not of this world, is assuming too much.
And because I know a little about Annie's published thoughts about AP, and because I also consider myself an AP-style parent, I take offense to the suggestion that within the context of any belief system I would use Hell as a threat to get my children to behave.
I also find offensive the idea that a religious person has a "canned" response.
To me, this is akin to arguing that since I am a Christian, I must be a creationist and therefore am not teaching science to me children.
Not every world religion has an authoritative text. For those that do, you have to remember that many modern faithful do not believe in literal interpretations of those texts. And even for those who do, those "literal" interpretations still have great variations.
Candace:
I am not speculating or generalizing about motivations or attempting to understand thought processes. I was making observations about how I've seen religious and non-religious people explain things to children and using that to draw a conclusion that it is sometimes easier and sometimes more difficult to parent from a religious perspective. Why they do it or what the thought processes are behind it is not something I would pretend to understand.
As a child and teenager, I attended church, Sunday school, and religious youth groups. I spent time in the homes of friends whose families were very religious. They always seemed to have easy answers to difficult questions, but they weren't easy answers that ever satisfied me. Perhaps that is because as much as I tried to believe, because I thought that is what I was supposed to do and because it seemed to bring people a lot of comfort, I just wasn't cut out to be a believer. Or perhaps it is because the people who were answering the questions (pastors, ministers, Sunday school teachers, youth group leaders, evangelists, parents of friends, relatives, etc.) weren't what you would consider intellectual Christians. Among my real-life friends and relatives who are strong believers, I can only think of one who has put a lot of intellectual thought into it and who does an exceptional job explaining her beliefs and positions. I still don't see things the same way as her at the end of the day, but I do value the thought that she puts into it.
I apologize if you found the language to be condescending. Perhaps I should have taken three paragraphs to explain what I tried to write in two sentences.
Yes. Sorry that wasn't clear.
Just as there are people who have encountered permissive parents who say they are "AP" and come to the conclusion that AP "means" permissive parenting...to observe religious parents using "easy" answers to manipulate or control their children and coming to the conclusion that this is faith-based parenting...well, it is over-generalizing and it is mistaking a particular manifestation for the essential parts.
I'm sure it is sometimes easier and sometimes more difficult--but I wouldn't assume it is because we all use threats of hell or promises of heaven or have easy "canned" answers.
I have a very inquisitive four year old and I guide her on her quests for knowledge but I never, ever dictate to her what she must believe. And I certainly never threaten her with hell-fire.
Point taken, Candace.
I know that in my little farming community religion often comes up at school. My family are not Christians, and sometimes my 6 yo 1st grade son brings home questions or makes statements that aren't in line with our beliefs. My hubby and I do our best to answer those questions so that he can understand. We want him to make up his own mind in his own time about religion. As such, we won't keep him from going to church with his friends as he gets older and will even take him ourselves if he wants.
But, when the principal stops me after I pick up my son one day from to tell me that he was telling a female classmate about where babies come from in a clinical manner and he doesn't want upset parents calling him, it made me mad. My son said that babies come out a woman's vagina (which is how it usually happens). He was overheard by the teacher who took it to the principal who brought it to me. I can understand that the principal has a school to run and doesn't want upset parents, but I could just as easily BE one of those parents because of the amount of religion that is allowed in the school.
For me, my kids are going to learn new things at school that I will have to face before I am "ready". I can't rely on the school to do my parenting for me.
[...] in in-depth discussions on the blog. She has been very engaged on topics like parent-blame authors, religion, high-fructose corn syrup bloggers, epidurals and [...]