Wednesday
Sep022009
Why I can't recommend Ferber or Weissbluth
Wednesday, September 2, 2009 
I do not think cry it out is an appropriate way to teach babies or children to sleep, whether it is a graduated method (like Ferber) or full-on let 'em scream until they pass out extinction (like Weissbluth) or until they vomit and beyond (like Schafer), I'm not on board. There are some people who have been reading my blog for a long time and consistently express their dismay at my anti-cry-it-out posts. Recently, a few more people have chimed in on my blog and on twitter with their disappointment at my closed-mindedness on this issue.Let me try to explain why I can't recommend them.
I cannot recommend a book or a system that has great suggestions but concludes with a last resort that I consider to be wrong, because ultimately a lot of people will be looking for the easy way out and will take the documentation of that last resort as permission to go ahead and use it.
- I wouldn't recommend a marketing book that suggested lying or spamming as a last resort if other techniques don't work.
- I wouldn't recommend a financial management book that suggested cooking the books a bit if you don't think the real results will please shareholders.
- I wouldn't recommend a book on getting out of debt that suggested robbing a bank as a last resort.
- I wouldn't recommend a book on how to write a good term paper that suggested buying it off the Internet if you don't have enough time left to do it properly.
- I wouldn't recommend a weight loss book that suggested anorexia or bulimia was an appropriate step to take if healthy eating and exercise doesn't let you lose 50 lbs in 5 weeks.
There are books that I own and would recommend that include some things that are not 100% my cup of tea, but that I do not think are wrong necessarily. Those books I will happily recommend with the caveat that I am not 100% of the same mind as the author. But cry it out is something I do think is wrong and I will not recommend any book that includes it even as a last resort.
I also cannot recommend a book that includes a cry it out method when there are other alternatives that are less likely to be damaging in any way:
- I wouldn't recommend that someone buy bottles with bisphenol-A (BPA) in them when there are stainless steel or glass alternatives available.
- I wouldn't recommend that someone formula feed if they are able to breastfeed.
- I wouldn't recommend that someone drive drunk if they can call a cab.
- I wouldn't recommend hitch hiking if public transportation is available.
- I wouldn't recommend burning your old tires instead of recycling them.
- I wouldn't recommend using the morning after pill or abortions as regular birth control instead of planning ahead and using other types of contraceptives.
Perhaps there are people who feel they cannot or choose not to use those alternatives for whatever reason or that have decided that they don't work for whatever reason. There are plenty of other people that will tell them that it is okay, so I don't need to compromise myself by recommending them on my blog.
I know there are people who are disappointed in me for being so closed minded on this issue. While I think that is too bad and it saddens me to disappoint others, it would sadden me even more if I compromised my beliefs and disappointed myself. You do not need to make the same decisions that I do or come to the same conclusions that I do and I will not call you a bad parent for making different choices that I do. But I will not change my position on this. I do not think it is appropriate to leave a child alone to cry to sleep. Period.
Image credit: Ernesto JT on flickr.
Reader Comments (150)
You don't feel like you can tell what they are complaining about before they can talk? When my baby was crying, I could figure out why he was crying, usually. Again, it doesn't mean you ignore crying at all times, which is why we focused on bedtime only for a long time. If you know your baby "needs" to be rocked for 3 hours to sleep at night and every time you stop she cries, you know why she's crying. She's TIRED and doesn't know how to fall asleep without the movement. So, some would say as long as you are holding her while she cries, that is okay and others would say that's another form of cry-it-out and to keep on rocking. All I'm saying is that it's normal for them to cry when you stop doing what you've always done because they just don't know any other way to fall asleep. It doesn't mean you avoid all tears at all costs, in my opinion.
Thanks for the intelligent discussion! This debate will be around forever, I'm sure, and no one has the right answer for everyone. I just like to help parents feel they aren't bad people for making decisions best for their family. It is hard enough being a parent these days. Take care! See you around Twitter! ;) @PickNicksBrain
As a mom of a co-sleeping one year old, I just want to thank you for your articles regarding co-sleeping! Often enough, other new moms are judgmental to the way I handle my dd during the night and give their unsolicited advice. Your views on the topic give me hope that I am doing what is right for all of us and that I am not the only one around that does not believe in the CIO method. Many thanks!
"I do not think it is appropriate to leave a child alone to cry to sleep. Period."
Good for you for making a stand against a bad idea and its apologists.
Hmmm. Provocative post and comments. Sorry I'm a little late joining this discussion but still wanted to add something. I have recommended Weissbluth to friends in the past (and I AM personally an attachment momma myself)--with long lists of disclaimers, but still... I do see your point about wholesale rejection / boycott when you believe something is wrong, period. But... (yes, here's my but), I do think Weissbluth has done a lot of very interesting sleep studies. For example, research on the number of hours of sleep needed in each age group, even including some studies on teens. He also has detailed studies on sleep patterns at different ages and bedtime hours and the effects of these things on school performance. I haven't found this kind of data from any of the attachment folks and I'm somebody who needed it. It saved my life when I found out that most babies under a year (and not just in the US) sleep between 6-8 pm and that my baby didn't in fact have the mythical "colic" but was just overtired and trying to go to sleep for the night. I also didn't understand sleep cues well before Weissbluth. So maybe what I'm saying is that the attachment parenting literature out there is incomplete--or at least not marketed well enough for sleep-deprived people to find the answers they need. Do you think I'm wrong?
While the CIO advocacy and strong forms of CIO in Weissbluth's book do bother me, I have suggested it with caveats to people. However, I have found a non-CIO book that covers more of the sleep biology than No Cry Sleep Solution - it's Sleepless in America, and that's the sleep book I recommend first. It informs you about sleep biology without scaring you and guilt-tripping you the way Weissbluth does.
@Priscilla: Have you read The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley? Most, if not all, of the things you mentioned there are in her book. She may not have done the research herself on those things, but she references and explains them clearly. She also did research/test all of her sleep tips with real families.
You wrote, "I do see your point about wholesale rejection / boycott when you believe something is wrong, period. But… (yes, here’s my but), I do think Weissbluth has done a lot of very interesting sleep studies. For example, research on the number of hours of sleep needed in each age group, even including some studies on teens. He also has detailed studies on sleep patterns at different ages and bedtime hours and the effects of these things on school performance. I haven’t found this kind of data from any of the attachment folks and I’m somebody who needed it."
I've made an enquiry about that to the Alliance for the Transformation of Childhood (atlc.org), of which my newsletter is a member. They're pretty big on research in all areas and might have something.
Although, we're talking about babies here aren't we? Studies on "sleep patterns at different ages and bedtime hours and the effects of these things on school performance" are irrelevant.
Thanks everyone. I haven't actually read Pantley's "No Cry Sleep Solution" because I heard mixed feedback about it from friends. But I will try it and "Sleepless in America" because I would like something better to recommend to data-oriented friends.
Bob Collier: Sorry if I wasn't clear. Weissbluth's book is very disorganized so yes he does go into sleep for older kids but one of his points is that at certain ages regular bedtime hours are important and at other ages, its less important as long as they are getting the right number of hours for their age group. He also looks at school performance based on baby sleep patterns among other things.
I understand. Thanks for clarifying.
I admit that I did not read all of the comments on here, so forgive me if I'm saying something that has already been said.
I wholeheartedly agree with your anti-CIO stance. People often tell me that by not letting my daughter CIO I am spoiling her. Well, I've got news for ya, buddy - I don't immediately rush to her and fix all her problems for her the second she starts crying. I wait a minute or two to see if she can self-sooth. If she can't self-sooth in a couple of minutes, she's not going to be able to if I just let her keep crying. Of course I want her to figure things out on her own, but for now she is 5 months old and how much do you really expect a 5 month old to know?
My 4 year old still gets frustrated with a lot of things after a few minutes of not being able to figure them out. That's understandable. *I* get frustrated after a bit too! So naturally I am going to help my 4 year old after 5 or 10 minutes of her trying and not getting it. Why wouldn't I want to do the same for my baby?
Another way that I look at it is like this: they say when you put your child in time out, it's only appropriate to put them in for one minute per year-old that they are. So if I would assist my 4 year old after 5-10 minutes of frustration and no gain, why wouldn't I help my baby at a sooner point in time?
Am I making sense at all? I'm not really able to word this as eloquently as I would like and I apologize for that. I've never really had the opportunity to hash it out until now. HAHA. Anyway, I am glad I'm not the only nutjob out there who is spoiling her children. (HAR HAR.) Thanks for yet another great post!
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your baby is either teething, learning to walk, or suffering separation anxiety. It could also be pin-worms or lice (common among small children in daycare) or an allergy to a new food.
It could be that your baby, just now, has suddenly realised that mommy is gone all day. She may not sleep at daycare because she is nervous and upset and doesn't know when or if you are coming back. She won't go to sleep at night because she desperately needs mommy. She wakes up, as all normal humans do, but she can't go back to sleep because she has to know whether or not mom is there.
Obviously if its pin worms, lice, or allergies then it should be treated. If its teething or a milestone it should pass as well.
But if its your baby's temperament not being able to adjust to mommy and daddy being at work all day nothing is going to change that, she will certainly sleep better at some point in the future but the problem will manifest in other ways.
You know your child and deep down underneath all the "advice" and "suggestions" and other crap moms get loaded down with probably have an inkling what is wrong; though maybe you don't want to admit it.
In the meantime you, the adult, must simply get more sleep and that means going to bed earlier or getting up later, or napping (which probably isn't possible if you work). Assume that you are going to be woken at night and then plan your life accordingly. You can't function without enough sleep, and you can't cope with let alone help your daughter through this without help. Trust me. I tried Pantley's method once when I was already extremely exhausted and at the end of my rope, and while I have nothing against Pantley's method, however for me it can not work. I have insomnia and if I have to try getting the baby to fall asleep on their own (ie without my nipple in their mouth) more than three times it doesn't matter how gentle it is or how well it works for the baby I am awake and unable to sleep and therefore unable to function at all after a night or two. After the second night which I spent crying on the floor of my son's room afraid to let him sleep in my bed because I was too exhausted and too upset I realised that I just had to get sleep. And I have found that as long as I am going to bed at a reasonable time, or sleeping in enough AND hubby is helping out enough around the house I can get through almost any amount of waking up at night. My first never slept more than 2 consecutive hours until he was 2 years old, I thought I had it rough until I met a mom whose son woke every 90 minutes on the dot.
Get enough sleep, get enough help, and use whatever sleep arrangement gets the best sleep for the most number of people. Maybe that's bed sharing (with or without daddy), maybe its a side car arrangement, maybe its a crib where baby can see you and you can touch baby, maybe its room sharing, maybe its baby in baby's own room with a monitor.
Just because there is some possibly great information in Ferbers books doesn't make CIO right. And no matter how right a book is otherwise if it promotes something that you believe to be actual ABUSE then its your right not recommend the book at all.
Of course one could recommend it with the caveat that it contains methods which constitute abuse. Just like you could recommend a book that is so old it recommends not putting a baby in a car seat even though we all (hopefully) now know that's a horrible idea and illegal.
But with the plethora of sleep books out there I have to imagine there are many books that impart all the same information as Ferber excluding CIO. Its not that this blog author, if I may speak on her behalf, said that nothing that Ferber says is right or ever worth listening to. She has simply stated that she, personally, is not willing to overlook CIO in a book. The author believes there is noting in Ferber that you can't get from some other book that doesn't support CIO --so she chooses to never, ever recommend a book that contains CIO at all. Read that again she CHOOSES to PERSONALLY never recommend or endorse any book that contains CIO. She knows that many other "anti-CIO" people choose to endorse some of those books with the caveat that they don't believe in chapters X, Y, and Z. But that is their choice and she has drawn a line in the sand and doesn't want to keep hearing "Oh but X book is soooo great except for the CIO part"
If Ferber works for you without following the recommendations for CIO or graduated extinction or whatever you or he wish to call it that's fine. Just don't expect her to recommend the book
A view from the other side (of older children who did not CIO):
My (breastfed, attachment parented) children are almost 6 (girl) and 8 (boy.) 8 yo coslept from birth, had many frequent but brief nighttime needs (nursed around the clock every 2 hrs for the first year.) Has always had a need for high-touch/high contact, day/night. Watching a movie together, he's always in physical contact with husband or me, usually with feet tucked under one of us, pressed into a corner of the couch (I suspect he has some sensory integration issues related to needing strong pressure/strong touch. They are mild, but manifest in sleep/closeness behaviors.) He goes to sleep every night in his own room (with me reading next to him most nights, though he easily goes to sleep solo when there is a babysitter, or when having sleepovers with friends.) At 8, he is still a frequent nighttime visitor to our room, however his disruption is minimal (I don't wake most nights) and it is something my husband and I both like, with busy active lives it's a chance to reconnect. Again, I think it's an element of my child, he needs that high amount of touch to feel centered. He is an extremely happy, extraordinarily bright, well-adjusted child with friends, interests, and passions.
My almost 6 year old also co-slept for the first six months, at which time we realized that she needed her own sleep surface (she was very wakeful with us, very sound sleeper when solo.) NOTE: During the time she sleep-shared, her then-toddler-brother was not in the same bed. Simple co-sleeping safety.
She went through periods of time when her sleep was challenging, particularly with a middle-of-the-night period of wakefulness (coincident with my cycles.) I attended to her, but it was a challenge from about 18 mos to 2.5 yrs old. I never considered CIO as an option to my parenting of her during that challenging period. I used other strategies (a restful bedtime routine, a favorite music cd, sleep-sharing in her room, holding her, rocking, breastfeeding, rolling in a stroller through the house, slinging, singing, singing while slinging, a nighttime comfort object, white noise.)
Today at almost 6, she sleeps completely independently. She goes to sleep in her own room, and sleeps all night, every night (illnesses and rare nightmares notwithstanding) in her own bed. She is a joy to be around. She is independent, bright (accelerated a full year at school,) creative, expressive, energetic, articulate, imaginative. She has friends, enjoys dance, has a thousand ideas, and loves to share them.
Both of my children had different nighttime needs. We met those needs in different ways, because they are different people. When meeting those needs, we considered what was best for the child, as well as what worked well for our family. We never felt that CIO was a viable option, because it felt completely wrong to us and went against our parenting instincts on every level.
[...] I am not comfy letting a tiny baby CIO. I read this article and her sources and find it very compelling: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2009/0...or-weissbluth/ [...]
I'm with you. I cannot and will not support or advocate resources or parenting methods that advocate "crying it out". A book a lot of my children's friend's parent's use is called "Baby Wise" ( there is apparently a whole series including "toddler wise" etc). This book teaches regimented and strict routines set up by the parent, for the baby to follow, including crying themselves to sleep.
It breaks my heart knowing that for infants and toddlers, usually their "want" is their NEED and they cry to get their needs met. If they were verbal, able to say "mommy I am scared and I need you", no commendable parent would ignore their pleas. Consider their cries in bed to be the same plea in a non verbal way.
It dismays me and while I won't openly criticize others, I won't be silent about my personal view that it is inapropriate.
Thanks for always landing on the side of meeting baby's needs and not faltering though you may have an unpopular position!
I have been fortunate enough to have a great sleeper. She's been "sleeping through the night" since she was 4-weeks old. Last night, however, she cried so loud and so hard that I thought she would hurt herself. I stuck it out with her, doing what I knew to comfort her, and before long she was asleep in my arms. The most remarkable thing about it was that she slept from 10 til 8 the next day! I haven't felt this rested since she was born! I don't recommend CIO but I do have other tips and tricks to help with http://www.gettingbabytosleep.org/" rel="nofollow">getting baby to sleep.
Weissbluth does not say "close the door and do not go back in. Period." Re-read the book your despise, and are advocating against, before saying something like that. It worked well for our family and he has some extremely helpful information and cues to look for. We have two kids who are great sleepers and share a room at 5 and 1.5 years old. They are happy, sharp, independent individuals who are not totally dependent on Mom and Dad for sleep. It makes for a happy household all around! And I understand what dustyz was getting at in explaining his home situation. Just because some of us use the CIO method for a brief period of time does not make us horrible people who are "taking a break from parenting." I am a stay at home mom who loves her kids and has taken time out to raise them--no daycare. And MANY people have come to use to ask what methods we've used to make such caring wonderful kids. Just my two cents.
Mary:
In his description of the Extinction method, which is one of the approaches he considers acceptable, Weissbluth does say that you should close the door and not go back in.
From p. 261 of Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Weissbluth:
Remember:
1. When the duration of protest crying at night is open ended, not limited, learning to fall asleep unassisted takes place.
2. When you put a time limit on how much protest crying at night you can tolerate or accept before going to the baby, you teach the baby to cry to that limit.
Weissbluth does make allowances for the times when *you* think your baby is hungry (and makes all sorts of assumptions about why a parent should be able to know that better than the baby) and for a quick clean-up of vomit before re-exiting the room. But generally, the Extinction method as he describes it involves closing the door and letting the baby scream until he falls asleep.
And this:
"Weissbluth does make allowances for the times when *you* think your baby is hungry (and makes all sorts of assumptions about why a parent should be able to know that better than the baby) and for a quick clean-up of vomit before re-exiting the room. But generally, the Extinction method as he describes it involves closing the door and letting the baby scream until he falls asleep."
is beyond disgusting to me.
I can't imagine being treated this way myself by another human being.
Why ANYONE would think its acceptable to treat a baby, who is completely dependent on other for care, this way, is incomprehensible.
And as to this:
"because intermittent positive reinforcement had enormous teaching power."
perhaps he should think about that statement a bit. He acknowledges that positive reinforcement works, yet this mthod is about associating negativity with sleep as a method to teach a baby to sleep through the night - which, in itself isn't healthy/biologically sound for a tiny baby who has a tiny stomach, and still-developing lungs, for whom frequent night waking is a means of self-preservation.
I'm really astounded that books like these can stay on the market. People treat their animals better than their children when it comes to sleep.
I let my second child 'cry it out' because my situation was getting really bad. I was desperate, my family life was suffering, my business was suffering and my other child was suffering with the lack of sleep in my home. I had the help of a 'professional' and let me tell you that it didn't work. Let me rephrase: It did work in the sense that she slept for longer than an hour at a time and she slept away from my armpit for once. BUT It stressed the crap out of me, and it stressed my poor baby girl. I feel very guilty about doing it. She never stopped crying. The crap about it being only 3 days of crying is absolute BS. My baby cried for weeks. It helped her sleep longer, but I'm still feeling very guilty about it, and feel that I was wrongly influenced. I would not recommend crying it out to anyone. I'm glad that you are sticking to your beliefs, I wish I had been as strong. I hope that my baby girl does not have lasting affects from that 'bump' in the road. Thanks for your blog!
I wish i had the same ability to put my thoughts on paper like you do. This post is amazing!
http://www.accustomedchaos.com/2010/05/attachment-parenting-cio-me.html
Your "analogous" reasons for refuting these sleep methods are totally out of left field. Perhaps the reason you cannot appear to actually explain your opposition to the "cry it out" method is that your position is rooted in madness and is wholly illogical.
Sammy Jay:
I have explained my opposition to the "cry it out" method many times. I'm not sure where you got the idea that "I cannot appear to actually explain" my opposition. Maybe you are not prepared to hear it, but I certainly have explained it.
My youngest daughter was similar, while I never let her cry herself to sleep, when she was several weeks old, I clued in that she was not wanting me to rock and cuddle her to sleep, she just wanted to flop out and go to sleep. I would lay her down, rub/jiggle her butt and she would relax then snore. She wanted my presence as she bedded down, but not my arms. She still wakes in the night, she is 9 and often joins her dad and I in our room, and that is just fine. She tells us when she is tired, and knows her own body's cues for sleep, she just happens to be that kind of kid who doesn't sustain sleep very long.
My older daughter, exact opposite, wanted to be snuggled and rocked to sleep, to DEEP sleep, long after my boob slipped out of her mouth, I'd VERY CAREFULLY lay her in her bed, slip my shirt off (warm and smelling like Mama) and tuck it around her chin. Once I got her to BE asleep, she was down for 9 hours, my boobs would CRY in the a.m. waiting for her to wake.
See, with 4 kids, I've learned that every child has a sleep personality. A parent sometimes has to struggle to learn that personality and tailor their sleep system, to the child.
It can take A LONG FREAKING TIME to find out what works best.
Sleep parenting is like homeschooling, a lot of people have an opinion, a vision, a position, but what works depends on a lot of other factors.
Crying it out, not my choice. Ever. I was left to cry it out as a baby, *according to my parents* and I have horrible sleep issues. My step daughter, left to cry it out as a babe, would cry till she puked, she has horrible sleep issues now. My husband, same deal, horrible sleep. The correlation in my world, between horrible sleep and having been a CIO baby, means it's not something I can adhere to or support as a parent.
Wholly illogical? I love your sense of humour. Perhaps you could explain your position to the scientific world. All the science I've read on this topic in eight years of publishing a parenting newsletter tells me that babies left to 'cry it out' encode that experience in their neurology as abandonment. Abandonment is extremely scary for a human being who's totally dependent on other people for its safety and wellbeing, as all babies are. All the science I've read on this topic tells me that babies left to "cry it out" typically stop crying not because they learn to sleep "on schedule" but because they give up hope of being attended to. They stop crying out of despair in other words.
Thousands of years of biological reality - the "human givens" as they're sometimes called - don't go away just because certain alleged "parenting experts" have decided that it's more convenient for our modern society if parents are persuaded that it's okay to leave a baby to "cry it out".
Apparently, millions of parents now genuinely do believe that and act accordingly. They've been misled.
Oh good, as long as we're not being judgmental about other folks parenting then. I can tell you that I did use a method of CIO and never had the results that you did. Every kid is different and I hope that had that happened with one of mine I would have used the brain God gave me to try something else. But, thanks for the alternative arrest scenario!
[...] happened across this post by PhD in Parenting. I’m surprised that many of her readers would criticize her for taking the same position. I mean, it doesn’t surprise me that this research she refers to [...]
I know I'm a little late to this post, but I didn't have a kid until a few months ago . . . I have been extremely interested in sleeping lately as we have has troubles with napping. I completely agree with you that crying it out is not a great option. Many people have suggested letting him cry it out, and I have in short spurts but he will never fall asleep. He does sometimes need to cry for a few minutes in order to fall asleep. What are your thoughts on this? Even if I'm lying next to him (and he is changed, fed, burped) he will cry for a few minutes, no more than five and fall asleep. These are not cries of abandonment -- he knows I'm laying there with him -- but smaller cries. I haven't had any other children but I realize that all babies are different. Once you ind out what they need it makes it a lot easier.
[...] is familiar with authors like Ferber and Weissbluth (or if you aren’t, it’s okay…you don’t want to be), but the idea of leaving [...]
I think CIO is selfish. You choose to have a baby then you let him/her know his 'needless' crying out for your comfort is inconvenient and disturbing your much need rest. People dont want to be 'called out' on it being wrong, so they say your being 'judgmental'. They name call because -when they leave a helpless child without any help- their very own instinct tells them they shouldn't.
Sorry to be the downer in the party, but this topic really bugs me.
As I said in another thread, there is no credible evidence that any sort that CIO method harms babies. There is no evidence that "alternative" ways of dealing with sleep are less damaging.
All of the examples you listed about things you wouldn't recommend are evidence-based. Your opinion on sleep training is not. I appreciate that you are sharing your opinion, but it is still couched in language that claims it is something other than that, such as comparing sleep training to these real harms like BPA or drunk driving.
We used Ferber, and it involved about 45 minutes of crying total, in short intervals over 2 nights. Every few minutes, we went to her bed and stroked her back and explained that we were right nearby and we loved her very much and it was time to go back to sleep. It was not abandonment and it was not cruel. Please explain to me how 45 cumulative minutes of crying in the life of an infant is going to have any of the ill effects you claim it can have. Please explain how in 45 minutes I completely undid my ability to respond to my child's cues.
I don't object to you (or anyone on this thread) judging me because I secretly feel guilty about my decision. I object to you judging me because you have absolutely no ground to do so, other than you have decided that your choice is superior to mine. And at the risk of being judgmental, I think that is pretty lame.
If the Ferber method does not appeal to you, by all means, do not use it. It's not every parents' cup of tea, and its effectiveness certainly depends on a baby's temperament. But this is not a case like that of breastfeeding, where there is actual scientific evidence that breastfeeding provides benefits not seen in formula feeding. There is no evidence that sleep training harms babies. (And please don't tell me that there's no evidence that it doesn't, that is not a valid argument.)
I understand this blog is an opportunity for many with like-minded opinions to create a sort of echo chamber of self-affirmation. But in the community I came from, which was very much like this one, I saw moms at their wits' end with sleep deprivation, depressed and overwhelmed and being told that they should not try Ferber because it would damage their babies. There is no evidence that this is true, and it is not fair to give another mother misinformation that will make her feel like a bad parent for making a personal choice that has not been shown to do harm.
"Please explain to me how 45 cumulative minutes of crying in the life of an infant is going to have any of the ill effects you claim it can have."
Sure.
It represents an attitude of mind toward your infant's needs. It's the harm caused by the attitude of mind inherent in the Ferber method that's objectionable, not the 45 minutes of crying.
Bob Collier,
With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what my attitude of mind is towards my infant's needs.
I'm sorry, but are you claiming that because I allowed my child to cry for short periods of 5-10 minute intervals over a couple nights, that my overall attitude towards my child's needs is going to set her up for a lifetime of feelings of abandonment, insecure attachment and disordered behavior?
Because if you are going to make a claim as offensive as that, I hope you have some sort of evidence other than you just think it's so.
For your information, it was those couple nights of sleep training that allowed all three of us to resume a normal sleep schedule. My daughter was more energetic and generally happier during the day, my husband had more energy to spend hanging out with her after work, and I was less depressed and MORE SENSITIVE to her needs throughout the day.
"With all due respect..."
Hmm ... I don't think it is, Sarah.
If your personal experience of the Ferber method worked out for you, that's great, isn't it? But if I read what you wrote correctly, you didn't come here to relate your personal Ferber success story and to suggest that there can be circumstances where leaving a baby to "cry it out" is the best option, did you?
You came here, in your own words, "to be the downer on the party". The party that we're apparently having in our "echo chamber of self-affirmation".
I notice too that you object to the author of this blog post judging you because she has "absolutely no ground to do so, other than you have decided that your choice is superior to mine". Are you telling me you believe that co-sleeping, or at least having a baby in the same room as the parent, is *not* superior to leaving a baby alone to cry?
I'm on team Sarah. I wish all of you who do not believe cry it out should EVER be used even in a controlled manner all the best. I'm so happy you either found a way to live with no sleep for years or you had amazing children.
I, on the other hand, have found that until we let him try and cry it out on his own he would never get to sleep. He would always stay on the edge of awakeness and be cranky and unhappy all day and all night. Now he still has bad nights, but overall we are all on a good schedule. He sleeps in our room, in his own crib (I would have him in our bed still but he prefers his crib).
I think what Sarah, and I, have taken offense to in this post is the way it denounces any crying in the process of babies falling asleep. More power to you all on the no crying camp, but I'm just being realistic. What works for you does not work for everyone. State that at the beginning and you'd be all good.
My sweet boy is sleeping right now, and happier than ever these days with all the sleep he got after I finally stopped thinking about this stupid post I read before I even had a baby.
Night, night!
Look, before I start a comment war here, let me just state why this issue rubs me the wrong way, because I think there's a lot of common ground there.
I think the issue of sleep training is incredibly and unnecessarily divisive, as it divides parents who should be united in the mutual cause of doing everything they can for their children's well-being. I can understand having a strong feeling for your own children one way or another, but in an echo chamber, these opinions can turn into some of the comments that pop up in a thread like this, that parents who use Ferber are "selfish," "cruel," or "ignore their baby's needs." In reality you are creating ill-will between good parents, who have in common the TRULY important aspects of caring for their children. I suppose this is nothing new in the history of parenting, but it still bothers me.
Every baby is different, every parent is different, and every set of circumstances is different. For some parents and/or babies, sleep training just doesn't work. For some parents and/or babies, co-sleeping just doesn't work (we tried it with ours - she slept terribly and did not appear to enjoy herself). Yes, trust your instincts, to know yourself and your child and what will work for all of you. Beyond that, there is no evidence that choosing one approach over another will doom your baby to psychological damage.
Your comment, Bob, is an example of the attitude that disturbs me. You seem to imply that the reason this extremely brief window of crying will permanently damage my baby is because it reflects my overall attitude towards my child. This sentiment is what divides communities of loving parents instead of uniting them. For my husband and I, this personal decision, like all of our parenting decisions, was undertaken thoughtfully, compassionately, and with all of our interests in mind. There are a million ways to be a good parent.
If you were less judgmental of my parenting skills, we could have a great conversation about our experiences - from this end, I could tell you of my daughter's exploits in the baby sling, her bizarre love for seaweed, her "double-boob" nursing habits at 18 months, how well she responds when I explain each step of a process before undertaking it with her, the way that stating the emotions I see her expressing instead of telling her to stop having them seems to soothe and validate her. The way she gives out hugs and kisses and melts everyone in the room.
But instead, you have decided, without evidence, that a brief and transient personal choice I made in raising my child is harmful to her, and reflects my poor attitude towards her needs.
This issue pushes my buttons because being a parent is hard. Being a good parent is hard. We need communities that don't rely on just reinforcing one's own beliefs, but welcoming different perspectives. Our desire or ability to meet our children's needs, and our dedication to them, should not be questioned over an issue like this.
Erica - thank you for speaking up, though see my comment above about how I wish there weren't teams in the first place! ;-) sleep well!
Bob - Yes, that is correct. I believe that co-sleeping is not automatically better for every baby, every parent, and in all circumstances. I'm sorry if the fact that I have had a different experience from you offends you. Please see my above comment on why this issue gets under my skin. Hopefully it will resolve some things. Good night.
"I think what Sarah, and I, have taken offense to in this post is the way it denounces any crying in the process of babies falling asleep."
Does it? Perhaps I missed that part. Are you sure you didn't just make that up?
Sarah,
By your team I just meant that I agree with you on all points, and support your parenting style, I 'm on team 'support a parent' not 'judge a parent'. Parenting is not easy, especially when you feel like what your instincts are telling you would be judged by outsiders. This is just one of those issues that unless you lived in another family's shoes (or slippers in this case) you just don't have any idea. Only you and your husband know what is best for your child, children, family. Only my husband and I know what is best for mine.
Just a little background on my situation is that we had a severely colicky baby who ended up getting chiropractic treatments at almost 5 months. He had a hiatal hernia and severe cord tension. I don't recommend it for everyone, but we were out of options at that point. When your baby is rarely happy and always seems uncomfortable and can't relax you try everything. After three sessions over three weeks Jax was a new boy. You could see his relaxation and comfort in his tummy visibly. He is still hard to get to relax, but we are working on it. He is now a very 'chill' baby, and people always say how happy and smiley he is, and ask if he ever cries. Ha! There was plenty of crying but now that he has learned to sleep he can go on with his life. And if we had to do that by letting him cry a bit after exhausting all of our options, then I'm sorry if someone wants to judge our decisions.
It's important to note that cry-it-out has multiple meanings to multiple people. Alright, I'm done commenting on this. I promise! This post has always bothered me in it's absoluteness. But I am now more confident in my parenting so I appreciate it as a divisive post as a way to get some blog traffic.
Erica:
This wasn't a divisive post designed to get blog traffic. It was a response to people who kept asking me to add Weissbluth's book to my list of recommended books. You (and Sarah and everyone else) are welcome to your own opinions on this issue, but this is my blog and I don't need to recommend books that include recommendations and techniques that I am not comfortable with.
Sarah, I'm not the least bit offended by anything anybody has said here.
I think that's totally legitimate. I don't think it would be fair for anyone to demand that you recommend something that you don't believe in, even in the name of being inclusive. I'm not sure why someone asked you to do that?
My problem is that the language you use, in this case the analogies you draw, imply that the Ferber method is something harmful or immoral, when there is no evidence that it is either one of these things. You draw analogies to BPA in bottles, drunk driving, investment fraud, and eating disorders, to name a few. You also say that there are other alternatives that are "less likely to be damaging" when you have no evidence that the Ferber method is damaging in any way (I've looked at your references, and there are none that indicate any studies about the specific effects of sleep training.) This kind of language IS divisive, and it encourages the kinds of derogatory comments about "cry it out parents" that populate the comments of this post.
A lot of parents here like to encourage us to "use our instincts." My instincts told me that my daughter was experiencing disrupted sleep patterns following previous more restful sleep, likely due to developmental changes and traveling across time zones. My instincts told me that she was not getting comfort out of co-sleeping as a solution. My instincts told me that her disrupted sleep patterns were having a negative impact on her quality of life during the day. My instincts told me that her capacity to self-soothe was imminent and emergent, and just needed gentle encouragement in that direction. And my instincts were right.
I understand this is your blog, and I am just a guest. But as someone who lived in a highly "attachment parenting" oriented community, I saw these types of conversations divide very good and very loving parents unnecessarily, again and again, and it really gets under my skin. I posted to voice a new perspective that perhaps has been left out in this environment, but I would never expect you to actively endorse things that you don't like.
Thanks for providing a forum for discussion.
We have a 10 month old boy that in the last few weeks has developed a new and very intense attachment to mom. He will reach out to me and as soon as I pick him up, he instantly wants to be back in mom's arms. This wouldn't be an issue at all, accept that my wife has needed to work several evenings in a row.
As a little background, for about 8 of the last 10 months, my wife would nurse our baby to sleep, we then transitioned to just with him on the couch in his room till he fell into deep sleep, sometimes in our arms and sometimes on his own. We would then put him in his crib. He would wake up once or twice a night and my wife would feed him and then he would go back to sleep but would sleep very restlessly the rest of the night. Though we discussed CIO, we never really thought we would do it.
So the first day my wife goes to work in the evening, we played in the evening, went through the bedtime routine but as soon as he started getting tired, he started crying and within minutes it turned into uncontrollable crying and outright screaming. No matter what I tried to do, holding, bouncing, hugging, rocking, walking, nothing stopped the screaming for more than a minute or two. Eventually he passed out in my arms from exhaustion after almost an hour of screaming, with coughing fits and gasps for air. Even though I knew nothing was wrong other than him missing his mom, it is still very exhausting.
Next evening, tried for an earlier bedtime, same thing occurred. Third evening, later bedtime, more playing around, laughing and crawling all over the apartment, but come bedtime as soon as I brought him into his room, the screaming started almost instantaneously.
So on the forth night I decided that if he is already screaming for an hour at a time, let me just put him in his crib for a bit. I never read the CIO books, but a few friends told me about the 5 min, 10 min, 20 min routines and I figured I'd give it a shot. Ends up he fell asleep standing up in the middle of the 20 minute round. It was definitely tearing me up having to hear him scream without at least trying to soothe him somehow but he screamed for a lot less than when I was actually holding him. The next night he fell asleep after only 6 minutes.
Tonight was the third night. He cried for a lot longer than on the 2nd night but most of the time it was more of the complaining cry than the actual screaming. That's how I found this blog, trying to find some advice while the baby was crying.
So without setting off a new wave of angry discussion, any suggestions on what I could have done differently? It seems like leaving him in the crib worked better since he got more worked up being held by me than by being in his crib alone (or at least he got tired much more quickly), but maybe I was doing something obviously wrong? If tonight he had gone to sleep as easily as yesterday, I probably wouldn't be writing this.
Developing "stranger anxiety" or stronger attachments to mom around 10months is not at all unusual, and as in all situations with babies - is a stage that will quickly pass if honored - or will linger and/or get worse if the need it not met.
"What could you have done differently?"
Many things! It all depends on what your goal is. Are you trying to sleep-train your child? Are you wanting him to learn to settle on his own? Are you just wanting to help him to sleep when your wife isn't around? Are you wanting to maintain a close, attached, peaceful, empathetic, and responsive relationship at night (the same as you would, I assume, in the day?)
If you're truly not wanting your child to cry to sleep alone (I wouldn't want to cry to sleep alone, not knowing when/if my parent would return, and unable to get myself to them, or to fix my situation, or communicate my discomfort effectively), then you can hold him, soothe him as he allows, let him know you hear him, you understand his frustration, and allow him to tire in-arms until he's ready to settle and/or falls asleep.
Some babies just cry when they fall asleep - but they don't need to do it alone.
You could try reading a book like The No Cry Sleep Solution or the Baby Sleep Book for some helpful tips at gently helping baby learn to fall asleep without stress or strife.
You can try settling him in his crib (if you feel HE really wants/needs the space) but leave out the specific length of time, and don't leave him - instead soothe him with your voice, pat his back, hold his hand, and explain why you have him in his crib. Babies hear you & understand more than we often give them credit for.
You can bring him into your bed, cuddle with him, sing to him, comfort him to sleep, then transfer him to his crib.
You can put a mattress on the floor in his room, completely baby-proof the room, settle him on the mattress, then roll away - allowing him to sleep on the mattress without having to disturb his sleep to reposition him.
You can settle him in-arms in a carrier then go about your business around the house until your wife comes home, and then allow baby to reconnect with Mom after work.
Babies are individuals with real needs and feelings - they are just unable to talk and unable to move as we are. They also don't have the fully developed ability to understand that when their caregiver is gone, they aren't truly GONE. Sleep isn't something that needs to be taught - the same as you wouldn't teach a child how to walk. You just set up the proper environment, offer encouragement, empathy, understanding, and support! Sleep training may "work" in the short-term, but the potential for long-term damage - to baby's trust, to your emotional connection, even potentially to baby's physiology - is greater than the perceived gains of sleep-training (which often has to be repeated after baby has been sick, or goes through a growth-spurt, or goes on vacation, etc.).
Babies are only babies for such a short time. There's never a reason NOT to respond with gentleness and empathy to their cries. Even if it means you're up more often than you'd like to for the first couple years of your life. It's worth it.
Thank you for replying.
Sleep training wasn't the goal putting him in his crib by himself hadn't crossed my mind till the 4Th night. I wasn't planning on doing anything but calmly getting him to sleep as I've done in the past. By night 4, my only goal was to just get him to calm down for more than 30 seconds at a time. This was only the 2nd time in his life that I've seen him even remotely this upset.
Also, the only book we've actually read is the No Cry Sleep Solution and got a lot of useful info from it.
We have absolutely no problem with nighttime feedings (as many as necessary) or with doing anything we need to soothe our child. My wife still breastfeeds and functions on very little sleep better than anyone I know. As I mentioned, prior to these nights, we would be with him as he got tired and he would fall asleep either in our arms or on the couch in his room while laying by our side. For the first 8 months my wife nursed him to sleep, but the last two months either of us could be by his side.
This time it was just his reaction to mom not being there and how upset he got. (This did happen once a few weeks ago with our sitter when he got tired earlier than normal and before we got home and screamed for 45 minutes in her arms before passing out). These last few days I literally tried almost everything you mentioned and it just irritated him more and more because mom wasn't there. (I was even thinking of trying to go outside with him but our street is very busy and bright.) At the end though, he seemed to calm down much quicker and fall asleep quicker when I let him be by himself.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against CIO. Hopefully we all do what we feel is best for our children. I'm just wandering if anyone else has been in a similar situation and if some form of CIO worked for them or if they found success doing something else. My wife has a lot of evening work up ahead and I want to do anything I can to not have him get so upset night after night. He cried so hard in my arms that he started coughing, gagging and shaking.
My husband and i are furious, we found out yesterday that our 22 month old granddaughter whos with her mother and living with her sister and boyfriend was put in a bedroom for a nap and was left there til sbe cried til she puked. Who does this to a child? The sister is about 22 and has no kids of her own. The mother was working at the time. I guess her mother the other grandmother wasnt too upset with her daughter, just saying well she needs to take a nap. The sister said she was being a. Rat and needed a nap. I wanta shake the crap out of the sister and ask her who the hell she thinks she is doing this to my grandaughter. She didnt bother to ask how to put ber down for a nap. Which is to lay down with her a d she will play for a little bit and fall asleep. Thats how the mom has done it and what the baby is use too. We are thinking of calling childrens services to see what they think. If they do this, i wonder whats next. The mom is 8 months pregant and this baby shes haing is not my sons. She was on herion up until 4 weeks ago. I just dont know what to do. I feel sorry for the baby shes going to have, it may have alot of problems if it even lives. I just worry about my grandaughter. If i had known she was on drugs we would of tried to get her legally. But then again, they always give the children back to tge parent once they show they have straightened up. And if that happened she may not let us see her anymore. As for my son. Hes involved as much as possible. He loves his daughter but hes not able to get her legally right now. Any suggestions on what we should do wouod be greatly appricated.
I did CIO with my daughter. I know that people will consider this to be an unscientific and irrational response and that I am not looking at developing my child's self-soothing skills or parenting for benefits in the long-run and crap like that but I will always regret doing CIO on her, for the rest of my life. She is now a great sleeper but I am sorry, I will never forget those weeks for as long as I live.
I just came across an article about a Muslim website in Calgary that suggested "lightly hitting" your wife as a last resort if she is disobedient.
http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/391655/posting-on-calgary-muslim-website-suggested-lightly-hitting-disobedient-wives/
When people criticized the article, the response from the Muslim group was "Maybe you need to go re-read the article.If it’s 99 per cent positive, why don’t you just focus on the positive and just leave that one per cent?"
I'm not saying that hitting and cry it out are the same (that would be a whole other conversation), but I did find it interesting that the argument made by this group was the same as the argument made by people who think I should support/recommend Ferber and Weissbluth's books despite the fact that they include cry it out as an option and/or last resort.
Currently "taking the night off" with a 7-month-old who hasn't slept in two months. My husband and I are exhausted and snapping at each other. Our relationship as well as our kids' daytime needs, jobs and my husband's law school career are suffering. Boy, sitting and listening as my baby cries all night long is a big treat. This crying it out is like a VACATION.
I know this was posted three years ago, but it's three years more idiotic and unreasonable than it was when you first posted it. We can't afford to stay up all night with a baby who refuses to sleep for another two weeks. Two sleep deprived parents is not good for a family. We'll try anything. And, oh, look at that, as I type this, the baby is finally sleeping peacefully for the firs time in a week. And all it took was a hour of checking on him every 10 minutes while he cried and learned to soothe himself.
And what a vacation this has been for us. *eyeroll*
Wow. What a ridiculous comparison. Looks like you're full of them (and it).